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Interview : 
The Tinubu Government is leading Nigeria to economic stability. No Panic. - Special Adviser, Sunday Dare Provides useful insights 

A MEDIA CHAT WITH MR. SUNDAY DARE

Interviewer: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Mic-on Podcast. I am Seun Okinbaloye.

The Tinubu-led government is two years in, but there is already plenty to unpack from governance to the evolving drama of party politics. So, let’s take it one at a time.

Governance: President Tinubu’s time in office so far is marked by policy changes, which includes the removal of fuel subsidies and the unification of the exchange rate. These have come with huge economic impact on the people. His administration has also faced challenges such as rising inflation and cost of living.

Now, politics. As expected, in any democracy, interest in the presidency is already heating up. Some old allies and longtime rivals are aligning, building a coalition aimed at ensuring that President Tinubu says only one term, and perhaps, as he promised, he will return into Lagos to retire.

So, how does the president navigate the twin pressures of governance and political survival? Interestingly, this is the earliest I’ve seen politicking begin ahead of the next election in my over 20 years of journalism and more than a decade of covering politics. A recent survey conducted by an African polling institute is also something that is worthy of note. It revealed that between 79% to 83% of Nigerians have little or no trust in the President Bola Tinubu-led executive, the National Assembly, and the judicial arms of government. This scenario is certainly intriguing.

This is invariably saying that there is some kind of discourse that has emerged regarding the government’s performance, credibility, and the level of trust in the government. There are even members of the ruling party who say they can see the storm from afar. Our guest today is someone deeply involved in shaping the administration’s narrative.

A senior journalist, a former minister of youth and sports, and currently the special adviser on media and public communications to President Bola Tinubu, we have here with us, Mr. Sunday Dare. Thank you so much for joining us.

SD: Thank you for having me.

Interviewer: Thank you so much indeed. It’s good to see you. How does it feel, I mean, you having to speak in the most difficult, and tough period of our political history?

SD: Yeah, Seun, there have been more difficult times before, when you look at the political journey of this country, particularly during the era of military dictatorship. In the political trajectory of this country, there have been intermittent phases of challenge and transformation, we’ve had intervening periods like this, and we have seen leaders rise up to the occasion. We’ve seen journalists, we’ve seen civil society, we’ve seen pro-democracy activists rise up.

So what we are witnessing right now is a continuation of nation building, of consensus building, where consensus is being forged and a democratic culture is evolving in our nation. So I don’t see that as extraordinary, because wherever you have a government, whether it’s new or outgoing, these issues will play up. Nigeria, 230 million people, six geopolitical regions, and I can go on and on. 540 languages spoken in this country, a lot of political alignments, realignments taking place, and then a country that has huge untapped potentials waiting to be unlocked.

And I tell you, unlocking these vast potentials requires a leader who embodies courage and boldness, to open up those taps, you can’t make omelette without breaking eggs and leaders do indeed break eggs to move forward.

Interviewer: Indeed, but it appears that both the omelet and the eggs seem to be in jeopardy right now. From a political perspective, the situation seems to be slipping away from the reins of control.

SD: Nothing is slipping away. It’s a question of perception, and I bring this up often because it’s very apt. On both sides, you can see the cup as half empty, or you can see it as half full. And we can have a rational…

Interviewer: What is it right now? Is it half empty or half full?

SD: That cup is half full.

Interviewer: For the rich and the mighty?

SD: No.

Interviewer: For the average and the poor person in Nigeria?

SD: When evaluating governance, it’s essential to look at it from the perspective of national development, and then granularize it to individual benefits. You cannot sacrifice one for the other.

You have to… it’s a balancing act. So we have an administration under President Bola Tinubu that is looking at the question of national development. What are the issues that have bedeviled the national development of this country? And we know the issues.

For decades, we have skirted around them conveniently. Then you look at the granularized aspect of it — what will be the benefits to the people, and what sacrifices will have to be made to get this country moving forward? We’re not even talking about getting us to where we need to be.

And I’m telling you, we’ve been stuck in the subsidy removal debate for so long. You also know that we had a period where this country was consumed by the subsidy scam, and we watched it on television. Oftentimes, memories can be very short.

We saw several Nigerians, close to 50 or even more, who had ripped this country off through subsidy scams. Did they end that regime? No. We had government after government saying they would end it.

$7.5 billion every year. Now, someone comes and presses that button. That’s one.

Two, when was the last time you took a bursary? When was the last time a bursary was paid? Today’s students, now around 30 years old, don’t even know that bursary existed. NELFUND came on — an idea of this government, signed into law by this government. As we speak, 720,000 people have benefited, with a few waiting in line, through stipends and soft loans.

So we can go on and on. But I just wanted to say, the cup is half full. Why? Because we’re seeing the fundamentals of our development changing.

We’re seeing the recalibration of the economy through strong indicators. And when you talk about, “Well, what’s happening?” — see what America did. See what the UK did.

Nigeria now can come up and say, “Look, we’re also adopting 21st-century modern governance.” Just say, look inward. What makes you strong as a country goes beyond who your leader is.

It’s also about the resources you have, and the leader who recognizes those resources and potentials, and makes legislation and policies that necessarily might not either benefit or make certain people happy, but moves forward to take those decisions.

Interviewer: I mean, interesting. And you are way senior to me when it comes to journalism. You’ve seen the worst parts of military dictatorship. You authored “guerrilla journalism”. You experienced how dark it was in the era of military rule.

And so I cannot tell you more about what the average person is feeling in this country. And the feeling is as though this government is very detached from what an average person is feeling. Is it so bad that those of you in power are so disconnected from the average Nigerian?

SD: So let me start from the President. And you also know his antecedents. He’s a President that is people-oriented, that is progressive. And he’s not detached from what is happening.

He’s not detached from the sacrifices Nigerians are making. He’s said it several times: “I thank you for your perseverance. I know these are difficult times.” Go through most of his speeches and extemporaneous remarks. That’s a leader that is connected. He’s not detached. He knows, definitely, that Nigerians are going through a lot. And he also studies the numbers.

He’s somebody that applies himself to data. And on a constant basis, he’s tweaking policies. Some of it might not be in the public space, right in the public glare, I mean.

But off the radar, we see consultations. We see reviews. You talked about a survey that came out.

So when I see surveys like that, I go to the back end. You know the back end matters. So you raise certain interrogatories about that survey.

What was the survey sample size for a country of 230 million? What is the sample size? That’s one. What is the margin of error? Have you checked the profile of the company that did it? We saw the survey, and we went to the back end.

And we said, well, what we’re seeing here is different from what has been put out. The fact is this, Seun: yes, Nigerians are going through a lot. The cost of living is high. But we’ve also seen, in recent times, inflation easing down. We’ve seen the cost of food prices coming down.

Just yesterday, a survey came in to us. We sent people to the grains market across the country. Not all the food items are coming down, but you can talk about grains — the price of grains has really come down. And then we also have reports asking, why do we have this persistent high cost of eggs and other things? And then the problem of the middleman, the problem of the last man — all of that came in. And then we started talking about the fact that, beyond this, we don’t have price control.

The President says, “I’m against price control.” But then you have enforcement regimes all over. You have telecom, you have regulators. And so we have Nigerians gaming the system. We have Nigerians not allowing the efforts and policies of government to trickle down and benefit everyone.

Interviewer: So there are saboteurs?

SD: No, not saboteurs. I wouldn’t call them that. What we see are people making super profits.

Interviewer: Benefiting from the pains of the people?

SD: Exactly. Where you have middlemen, prices go up. For instance, when the President asked cement producers to reduce their prices, they complied. But soon after, people asked why the price went up again. The producers explained: “We reduced our price, but retailers continued selling at the same high rate.”

So someone was pocketing the difference. The President said, “We did this for the sake of the ordinary people, but if they’re not benefiting, then we have to reconsider.” That’s the challenge — a systemic problem in the distribution chain.

But despite this, you see a government focused on instituting policies and initiatives to reduce costs and ensure benefits reach the people.

This is a journey. And I keep emphasizing that. The administration has completed two years; there are still two more in this first term.

Interviewer: But in the real sense, not up to that.

SD: Yes, but governance is like a four-year degree program. You can’t pull a student out after two years and say, “You’ve achieved nothing.” You must allow the full term before passing judgment.

Interviewer: You can know whether a student will graduate.

SD: Of course. There are clear trackers, strong indicators.

Interviewer: If a student is on track for a first-class, you can usually tell from the very first year.

SD: Exactly. And for this administration, there are also clear markers — a tracking system. Let me put it this way: you can already point to at least 10 areas of reform. This presidency is about reforms, and we’re beginning to see a clear path to recovery.

Take oil subsidy removal, for example. When you flip the page, it’s not just about subsidy removal anymore — it’s about oil sector reform. Without those reforms, you wouldn’t have Dangote in the picture, you wouldn’t have the “naira for crude” policy, you wouldn’t have decentralization or the entry of real market forces and competition.

In every oil-producing country, what strengthens the industry is competition. For the first time in Nigeria, we’re seeing NNPC and Dangote side by side, publishing oil prices, even advertising incentives — like “if you buy X number of liters, you get this benefit.” That never existed here before.

Interviewer: Competition.

SD: Exactly. And when competition enters, the value chain improves, revenues increase, and investments flow in. Just look at the $5 billion going into Bonga Fuels and other areas. That’s one sector reform already driving results.

We’ve also seen reforms in NNPC’s management — a complete overhaul. And whatever you say about the refinery, at least this government has said: “We cannot be an oil-producing nation and fail to refine at some level of value.”

SD: While the debate continues, we know that Warri, Port Harcourt, and other refineries have a clear mandate — to come fully back on stream.

Interviewer: But they’ve stopped working right now.

SD: Repairs are ongoing. Remember, these refineries and their equipment were neglected for almost 20 years. It’s like parking a car for 10, even 20 years. When you return, it takes time to get it running again — you change plugs, tune it, sometimes even drive it a few miles before it steadies. That’s where we are now. The repairs are active, and although output isn’t at full speed yet, progress is being made. When we came in, oil production was about 900,000 barrels per day. Today, it’s moved to between 1.3 and 1.7 million. That’s progress.

Now, let me take education as another example. I believe NELFUND is one of the enduring stories of this administration — a true game changer for young people and for education in Nigeria.

Look at the United States: about 70% of graduates spend their first four or five years of work life paying back massive student loans. What we are building here is different. Call it an education subsidy, call it a bursary, call it stipends — it provides real support. Already, we’re seeing a jump in school enrollment. That’s not just an investment for today’s youth, but for generations to come. And it’s trackable.

The same goes for MSMEs. Over 46,000 direct jobs have been created. Just last week, a program showcased results, with real beneficiaries giving testimonies of the impact on their businesses and livelihoods.

SD: Just two weeks ago, we saw evidence of what I call a silent agricultural revolution under President Tinubu. Twenty thousand tractors have been procured, with $1.5 billion invested in the ginger value chain alone. Today, ginger has become a major global commodity — something many Nigerians didn’t even realize carried such importance.

We’re also seeing the establishment of special agricultural zones, with significant funding going into them. These reforms are trackable. And when we talk about reforms, it’s not from zero to 100 overnight. It’s a gradual process — from 0% to 15%, from 15% to 30%. And I can say clearly: with key reforms, we are seeing steady, appreciable progress.

Are we where we want to be yet? No. But reforms take time.

Interviewer: The question, Mr. Dare, is this: many Nigerians had very high expectations. They thought they were voting for the Bola Tinubu they knew from 2007 — the one who would stop in the middle of Festac to talk to a woman selling corn, or on the bridge to assess road works, or in Agege to engage directly with the people.

Today, there are complaints about a lack of empathy — about a disconnect between this President Tinubu and the people. Some even argue that he’s surrounded by a group who have clipped his wings, preventing him from connecting with Nigerians the way he once did.

Is this a different Bola Tinubu from the one Lagos knew?

SD: Let me put this on record. The president we have today is someone I’ve known for 27 years — through the struggle against the military, through the fight for the restoration of democracy. I was privileged to serve as his Special Adviser on Media and later as Chief of Staff.

I’ve sat with him at critical moments in this country’s history, when difficult decisions had to be made. And I have seen him, time and again, stand with the people — but without pandering to populist tendencies.

Make no mistake: if there’s any leader who has earned the right to walk freely among the people today, it is President Tinubu. He can do that.

Interviewer: But why is he not doing it? Nigerians say that’s a disconnection.

SD: I wouldn’t call it a disconnection. There’s a very thin line here. The president sees his assignment not as a quest for applause, but as a duty to make the tough, timely decisions that Nigeria needs.

For over three decades, he has interrogated and engaged with the country’s challenges. Now, in the driver’s seat, he has a choice: take the easy route of populism — walking through markets, staging photo ops — or focus on real solutions. He has chosen the latter. Because true leadership is not performance for the cameras. It is results for the people.

SD: It’s easy to walk into a tomato market, but the question is: beyond photo opportunities, what have you done in terms of real policies? That’s where this president has been focused — designing and implementing initiatives that outlive the cameras.

Interviewer: So it’s more desk work than road work?

SD: No, it’s both. When you commission projects, you’re on the road. But let’s be clear: a president can only be in so many places at once. Even as a minister, I struggled to keep up with the pace. At the presidency, the daily itinerary is packed. The president is often at his desk till 2am, 3am — verifiable. That’s not new; that has always been his work ethic.

Remember what Awolowo wrote in The Voice of Reason: while others carouse at night, a true leader must be at his desk — thinking, designing policies, working to improve lives. That’s the life President Tinubu is living. Leadership is not measured by strolling through markets, it’s measured by the systems you put in place.

Interviewer: But why not Mokwa? Why Yelwata instead, when people expected him in Mokwa?

SD: The president gave clear directives on Mokwa. That’s why the Vice President and the Minister of Information went there immediately — on his instruction. The presidency is a team; he cannot physically be everywhere at once. But he ensures response is swift and coordinated.

Look at Maiduguri: the very morning after returning from a foreign trip late at night, he was on ground when the floods struck. That’s leadership. He knows where his presence will have the greatest impact, and he empowers his vice president, ministers, and agencies to act where needed. That’s why you have a government, not a one-man show.

SD: And when it comes to the theory of power, the principle of delegation is key — very fundamental. President Bola Ahmed Tinubu believes in delegation. If you appoint certain individuals to perform specific roles, they have their assignments. You delegate to them, you give instructions, and they report back to you. I believe that is what he is doing.

Interviewer: Sounds like Buhari to me.

SD: No, different. I can say that — totally different.

Interviewer: Buhari is a master of delegating responsibility.

SD: That is why I said one of the major principles of leadership — and every leadership book you read confirms this — is about knowing how to delegate, when to delegate, and who to delegate to.

Delegation, when it comes to the theory of power, is not about shirking responsibilities. Even in a radio or television station, the manager at the top cannot do everything. You must rely on your cameraman, your MCR staff, and others to get the job done.

That is how leadership works. Every leader also has his own style. Oftentimes, we are quick to judge and say, “oh, compare — this person is like that one.” No. These are two different people, with two different styles. What is common between them is that they are both progressives, and they both have the task of making this country better for the mass of our people.

Interviewer: Poverty does not know ethnicity, color, or race. Poverty is poverty. If you cannot feed, you cannot feed. And I know your spoken Hausa rivals your English.

You may have lived in America, but you also know the nature, the sensibilities, and the sensitivities of a northern man.

SD: Absolutely.

Interviewer: You know how they feel. And you know that the rating of President Bola Tinubu is at an all-time low with the average northerner.

SD: Where is that?

Interviewer: You want empirical statistics for that? It is a feeler — a general perception. And you, being an Ogbomoso man with northern roots, you understand the sentiments. The question is: does it worry you that the north feels this way about Bola Tinubu right now?

SD: Well, let me respond this way: the perception out there is that the north is not with Bola Tinubu.

Interviewer: Are they?

SD: My response is that the idea of the north being monolithic is erroneous. I was born in the north. I lived there for over 35 years before moving to the southwest. I built friendships, worked, and schooled in the north. As a journalist, I began my career reporting from the north and interviewed many top northern leaders.

So, without going into the deeper dynamics of development within the region, let me begin by saying this: every geopolitical zone or region in this country, through its leaders who attain prominent political positions, carries a responsibility — both to its own people and to the country at large.

The starting point, therefore, is that just like the north, the southwest, the south-south, and the southeast must also hold their leaders accountable. Those who have been in power, or are still in power, must answer: what have they done, and what are they doing for their people?

Secondly, the jury is still out on whether the north is truly against Bola Tinubu. As I said, I do not have empirical data to support that claim. I also play a major role in Hausa radio broadcasts, and I consume a lot of TikTok and social media content. From that vantage point, I see clearly: just as you will find a group or segment in the north unhappy with certain developments, appointments, or policies, you will also find the same sentiments in the southwest or the southeast.

That is why I want to depart from this idea of “the north.” The north is not Nigeria. Nigeria is made up of six geopolitical zones. It is about the Yoruba, the Hausa, the Igbo, and the many ethnic nationalities that make up this nation.

That is what governance at the highest level is about, and that is what Bola Tinubu represents. His concern is what benefits the entire country. Because the moment you pander to sectional politics, you lose focus. In fact, it becomes a script for failure.

We have seen attempts to package and force this administration into narrow cleavages of “northern,” “southwestern,” or “Yoruba.” But no — this president understands, as a statesman, a progressive, and with his depth of experience, that the mandate he holds is a Nigerian mandate. It is not a northern mandate. It is not a southwestern mandate.

SD: And you’ve seen the balancing act. In four years, there will be appointments. In four years, there will be decisions. We’re just two years in. People are jumping the gun, writing the final score. What we should have now is a scorecard that tracks progression — but instead, people are already giving results. No, it’s not time yet.

Interviewer: Let me tell you, out of the ten biggest electoral strongholds in the country — and remember, you’re speaking to a political journalist — out of those ten, the biggest states in the north consistently rank in the top six. I mean, you’re talking about Kano, Kaduna, Katsina.

In terms of population? No, voting numbers. Yes, voting numbers. And they’ve always done it. Don’t forget, I’m from the north, so I can also tell you this: only in the north do you find that level of consistency. I’m doing the numbers, and I’m telling you — the cultural values, the orientation of the average northerner, is loyalty to two people: the religious leader and the Sheikh.

In that sense, compare it to the south — the orientation is very different. The unison, the unity of direction, is not the same. Unlike the south, in the north, if the Sultan speaks, the rest follow.

The biggest voices — the ulamas, the Sheikhs — you know how deeply the northern man respects them. If they say one thing, everybody falls in line. And I relate so much with these people. But if all of them are singing from the same hymn book, don’t you think the administration’s second term could be in jeopardy?

SD: Right now, I can tell you for sure — they are not singing from the same hymn book.

Interviewer: Really? You think the voices are divided?

SD: See, off the radar, a lot of conversations and engagements are happening in a penetrative way. And not just in the north. Because, as I keep saying, I don’t want to fall into that cleavage. But since the north has been put forward, I’ll say this: there is engagement with clerics, with religious leaders, with intellectuals, with former public officials — all to ensure that whatever the fears and concerns of the north are, they are addressed.

It’s a delicate game. Because when you have a Nigerian mandate, you must be seen to be fair and neutral. But even in that neutrality, you must pay attention to specific concerns. For example, the needs of the north may be different from those of the south-south — say, the Ogoni people.

SD: So, to say that everybody in the North is singing from the same hymn book is not correct. I can point to several Sheikhs who have gone beyond mere endorsement — they have actively projected the work of government. Again, I think it’s too early to start counting the votes.

And why do I say that? Some of the policies of this government are still at the initiative stage. Others are ongoing. People are only just beginning to benefit. So, to start counting the votes now — it’s premature.

Interviewer: If we were in the US, where you worked for several years, there would already have been mid-term elections by now. There’s always a mid-term check on the administration. By this point, Congress would either be red or blue. Either the president is holding on to the legislature, or he has lost it. Some governors may even have lost their seats.

SD: By the mid-term report — May 29th — the issue here is not whether this president is holding on to the National Assembly. The fact is, this president has succeeded in recalibrating the economy. He has changed the dynamics of our economy, and we already have strong indicators to show for it. Some of those figures are already out there — which is why I’m not even reading them out.

Interviewer: Why is the president less popular than he was two years ago?

SD: Who gave that verdict?

Interviewer: You saw the API poll.

SD: Go to the back end.

Interviewer: But you know what they say — the microcosm reflects the macrocosm. Again, I ask, what was the sample size?

SD: Exactly. You need to check that. You don’t drain your own blood just to get your DNA.

SD: This is what I call selective auditioning. People choose what to hear. Even when the facts are before you, you decide otherwise. If you’re deliberate about searching for negative content about Bola Tinubu, you’ll find it. If you’re deliberate about searching for positive content — his popularity, his achievements — you’ll also find it. And that’s part of my work.

Interviewer: How disturbing is that for you?

SD: I deliberately search for content that highlights the positive — testimonials that show this man is doing something. That’s part of my work. But I also search for the negative. And I find both.

Interviewer: But for the man you know — is he popular?

SD: Yes. Bola Tinubu is popular.

Interviewer: If you went to the polls today, could he win an election?

SD: Yes.

Interviewer: In today’s Nigeria?

SD: Yes.

Interviewer: With just 36% of the votes last time?

SD: Yes.

Interviewer: Really?

SD: Yes.

Interviewer: Are you living in Nigeria?

SD: Two years ago, we had an election. Then, Nigerians had not yet experienced the leadership of President Bola Ahmed Tinubu. Today, we have seen so many converts. The same voices that once said, “crucify him — who is he to remove fuel subsidy?” are now quietly admitting that he was right.

Of course, they won’t come out openly to say it. But when you look closely, you see that many who once criticized him are now acknowledging that this man took the tough decision — he bit the bullet, at that time, for the sake of our country. And the question is: how many leaders would have done that?

Interviewer: How disappointing would it be for you if this man — whom you’ve known for over 30 years, whose mind and methods you believe you understand — fails to secure re-election?

SD: President Bola Ahmed Tinubu will be re-elected.

Interviewer: In 2027?

SD: Yes.

Interviewer: What gives you that confidence?

SD: First, the policies and reforms he has put in place. But also because policies take time. Any top economic expert will tell you — real structural reforms take four to six years before the full impact is felt. I’m talking about key policies here, not just initiatives.

Take the solid minerals sector, for example. Global demand for lithium, copper and other critical resources is surging. It took this president to provide the focus and support that sector needed.

Look also at the oil sector. The story today is very different from what it was. The education sector. Agriculture. Health. As we speak, 5,000 primary health centers have been reinvigorated, with 1,000 already fully operational.

So, when you sit back and review just two years of this administration, you see not only the sheer number of policies and initiatives rolled out, but also the depth of reforms. What you see is a leadership that is development-minded, deliberate, and courageous.

More importantly, you see a president who understands that Nigeria — this giant of Africa — has been punching below its weight for far too long. And now, under his leadership, those long-neglected, postponed, or sidestepped reforms are finally being confronted head-on.

SD: He’s beginning to interrogate those issues and confront the devils that have held this country down. That’s the difference.

Interviewer: But isn’t he pursuing those policies at the detriment of his own electability?

SD: Well, that’s an interesting postulation. From the start, the line I’ve been drawing is this: as a leader, you must choose between embracing populism or rejecting it, and instead saying, “I will do what is right for my country and my people.”

History shows this. Lee Kuan Yew, Margaret Thatcher — they took the road less travelled. They weren’t always the most popular leaders in their time, but today, the world acknowledges the foresight of many of their policies. When Thatcher left office, she wasn’t loved by everyone, but Britain looks back and admits she was ahead of her time.

Interviewer: And we hear that Bola Tinubu says he wants to be the Lee Kuan Yew of Nigeria.

SD: I’ve not heard him say that anywhere. What he has said is that he wants to turn this country around, to strengthen the economy, because he believes — rightly — that without a strong economy, nothing else will stand.

Interviewer: But why then is there this perception that your people already have a grand plan to manipulate INEC and write the results in 2027?

SD: Perceptions can be wrong — and often, they are. You can’t call the result of a football match before the referee has even blown the whistle.

Interviewer: Because the view out there is that if INEC is neutral, Bola Tinubu and the APC have no chance of winning re-election in 2027.

SD: Seun, you’re an experienced journalist. You know these narratives. They come up every election cycle. They were there during Obasanjo. They resurfaced during Jonathan. When the so-called “tsunami” swept the Southwest, it was the same thing — narratives everywhere. But narratives are not facts.

The reality is simple: you can’t declare the outcome of an election that hasn’t even begun.

Interviewer: But El-Rufai himself said the president will be sent packing.

SD: And is El-Rufai the voice of 110 million voters? How many does he command? Even if he commands some, can he dictate how each one will vote? Let’s be realistic. With all respect to him, equating El-Rufai to Nigeria itself is an overreach.

As the Yoruba say: “To ba ri owo mi, oori inu mu” — if you see only one hand, you may think it’s the whole body. But it’s not. Nigeria is far bigger, far more complex, than the views of one man.

Interviewer: Atiku has said it. Peter Obi has said it.

SD: For one El-Rufai, there are several others with even larger votes, stronger influence, and equal stake in Nigeria’s transformation. El-Rufai is not bigger than any Nigerian — everybody has a stake in this country.

Interviewer: But there are those who fear El-Rufai could bring this government down because he helped form the party.

SD: My response? Go and read Obasanjo’s book “My Command.”

Interviewer: I’ve read it.

SD: Then you know. Obasanjo — a former president — made El-Rufai a minister. Among his closest aides then, El-Rufai was one. If you want to know who truly understood him at his peak, it was Obasanjo. That’s why I stick with Obasanjo’s testimony.

Interviewer: Well, I’m just one of millions watching this.

SD: And I don’t want to turn this into an all-El-Rufai conversation.

Interviewer: But what was it? Shall we—

SD: You’re trying to pin me down—

Interviewer: No, no, no.

SD: What I’ve seen is this: El-Rufai is like shifting sands. He changes. Like everyone, he’s driven by interest. And the moment his interest no longer aligns with yours, he walks away. That’s politics.

Interviewer: He says that’s exactly the point — that he changed when he felt this government lost touch with Nigerians. That worries me.

SD: But remember, this is the same man who fought to return power to the South. He went to court against former President Buhari. He campaigned vigorously with Bola Ahmed Tinubu on the APC platform. He helped draft the APC manifesto.

Think of it as a 10-kilometer journey — El-Rufai walked seven kilometers with us.

Interviewer: He says it was a journey to nowhere. That’s why he backed out.

SD: Yet he was on that journey. He sat at the table. He joined the meetings. So the real question is: at what point did it suddenly become a journey to nowhere?

Interviewer: He agreed and took ownership. He said he was responsible.

SD: Responsible for suddenly realizing?

Interviewer: He called his government a demon, a devil — an evil he created. He says he takes responsibility but will also be the architect of driving that demon out.

SD: Everyone looks for a scapegoat to justify their actions. But let’s be clear: you start a journey with someone. You help lay the foundation. You build the structure. The house is complete, the rooms are furnished, and you’re still living in it. Then, because you didn’t get the room you wanted, you suddenly declare the whole building useless? Logically, think about that.

Interviewer: So you don’t—

SD: El-Rufai is an intellectual. I give him that. He’s an “accidental public servant,” as he once described himself. His record as minister speaks for itself. He governed for eight years, managing development, religion, ethnicity, and politics. So are we to believe that someone with that level of experience and credential made a fundamental mistake from the very beginning—only to suddenly realize it near the end?

You credit people based on their track record. That’s why we must ask hard questions.

Interviewer: So you think all of this is selfish?

SD: To some extent, yes. And that’s not unusual—it’s the nature of politics. Permanent interests, not permanent friends. When interests diverge, you’re free to move. But you still need a story, a narrative, to justify that move. That’s what we’re seeing here.

Interviewer: Let’s look at the larger issue. I hope you and your friends in power are not experiencing the Greek principle of tragedy—hubris, the pride that comes with power. Sophocles wrote about it. Now, on the new opposition coalition under the ADC platform—you called it opportunistic and described its leaders as serial election losers. Do you genuinely believe they have no chance in 2027?

SD: Okay, Seun. Let me take you back. I’ve spent 33, 34 years in this space. When I was a young, hungry journalist in Jos—hungry to get stories that would make the cover of The News magazine—I was one of the correspondents covering the SDP convention. That was when I first encountered Atiku Abubakar. Do the math. That’s almost three decades ago. He’s been in the political space since then. And the jury is clear on the impact he has—or has not—made.

But I want to stay with issues, not personalities. Look at the ADC promoters. Take their profiles, interrogate them over time. Do they have the right to form a party? Absolutely. But do they have the right to start throwing stones? That’s another matter. Where have their solutions been all along? Why didn’t they apply those answers when they had the chance? Some of them had the greatest opportunities of public service this country could offer.

So yes, they can form a party. Nobody disputes that. But Nigerians also have the right to ask: do they truly have what it takes to deliver? Because we can x-ray their performance, their record, and judge for ourselves. Or is this just a convenient pathway for relevance? That’s the point we’re making.

When people say, “Oh, there’s panic in the APC”—let’s be clear. No. President Bola Ahmed Tinubu has a mandate. He was elected to run a country, and that’s what he is focused on. Some others may be busy running a party, but the President is busy running Nigeria. He will not be distracted.

Now, is the politicking early? Yes. In my 30 years, this is the first time I’m seeing presidential campaigns practically two years ahead. But I don’t see panic—I see maturity. In the U.S., three years before elections you already see meetings, surveys, groundwork. So what’s happening here is not chaos; it’s a sign of a maturing political culture. No panic anywhere.

Interviewer: But the decry is still that Nigerians are hungry. And many in government don’t like to hear that. How do you fix it? Because ultimately, nobody cares about the politicking. They just want their lives better, their food on the table, and money in their pockets.

SD: They also want to know that there is a government making deliberate efforts to build a better country. See, you can choose a country where, for a short time, everybody feels happy, and then suddenly the struggle returns. Or you can choose to build properly. It’s like building a house: either you ensure the foundation is solid, or you make a makeshift one. And when pressure comes, it collapses.

Recalibrating an economy—Nigeria’s or any other—comes with sacrifices and pains. This administration has been upfront about that. We acknowledge that some policies would create discomfort, and that cost of living would rise for a while. But we are also working tirelessly to alleviate that burden.

Interviewer: Peter Obi thinks this government has failed over the last few years.

SD: That’s his personal opinion.

Interviewer: He points to debt and welfare as proof.

SD: Which is totally inaccurate and has been corrected repeatedly with data. And in governance, you don’t correct opinions with rhetoric; you correct them with facts and data.

Interviewer: Still, is this government concerned about the alliances forming? We haven’t seen this kind of convergence before—those who know APC inside out and those who fought it from the outside now coming together. Even Amaechi is in that camp.

SD: Do you know that in President Muhammadu Buhari’s first term, Obasanjo also built an alliance—called the ADC—aimed at removing Buhari? I can show you the Guardian newspaper of 2017. The lead story: “Coalition built to remove Buhari, called ADC.” So, nothing happening today is extraordinary.

We’ve seen these waters before—whether it was the coalition of NADECO against military rule, or the coalition that stopped Obasanjo’s third-term bid. Today, there is no third-term scenario. What we have is a President with a four-year mandate, and some trying to suffocate him out of governance. That will not happen.

There’s a Yoruba saying—ariwo oja—the noise of the marketplace. As a leader, you have a choice. You enter the market with a clear agenda: to buy tatashe, atarodo, tomato, and onion, because you want to cook good soup at home. You can either go straight to the sellers, buy what you need, and return home satisfied. Or, you can let the noise of the market distract you—argue here, talk there—until the market closes. Then you go home with an empty bag.

Interviewer: But what would be extraordinary this time around is if Tinubu goes the way of Jonathan—sent out in the 20s, just like 2015.

SD: I’ve seen several of those narratives. And as a journalist and writer, I understand—it’s normal to draw comparisons. Narratives will always exist. But whether a narrative translates into reality is another matter. Will there be a contest in 2027? Absolutely—because we must have an election, and we want it transparent. Will someone win that election? Yes. And I can tell you: Bola Ahmed Tinubu will secure a second term.

Interviewer: But they say this election will be the people against Bola Ahmed Tinubu.

SD: That’s just another narrative. And we must ask: who exactly are “the people”?

Interviewer: The Nigerian people.

SD: No, no. “The people” have now been rebranded. The narrative being pushed is that “the people” are Atiku, or Obi, or others in that circle—politicians presenting themselves as the embodiment of the people. But let’s be clear: how many are they? Where have they earned the legitimacy to speak for over 90 million registered voters? Where have they earned the power to claim they are the Nigerian people?

Interviewer: What part of the bear has Bola Ahmed Tinubu poked? It does look like he has angered the establishment.

SD: A fundamental question. Look at the reforms. Take the oil sector, for instance. Do you know how many people benefitted from the subsidy value chain? Nigerians across the country. I won’t call them an oil mafia, but we all know there were entrenched interests—even those who tried to block subsidy removal.

Now, let’s look at the floating of the Naira. The arbitrage system under the previous government created billionaires within months. It was massive. President Tinubu could have allowed it to continue. He could have looked away and let the party go on, with everyone benefitting in the short term.

But he chose to put a stop to it. He chose reforms. And in doing so, he inevitably stepped on powerful toes. There are people—up to this very day—who will never forgive Bola Ahmed Tinubu for floating the Naira and removing subsidies from Forex.

Interviewer: And that’s part of the anger, isn’t it? When people fight Bola Ahmed Tinubu, it’s about his ideas and his policies—not necessarily personal grudges. Yet, I can identify people who are simply unhappy, some because of personal grievances, and they’ve seized the opportunity to attack him.

SD: Exactly. And like I’ve said before—if you want to fight Bola Ahmed Tinubu, be ready. Fight him on the basis of his policies, on his convictions, not out of personal bitterness. Every leader comes in with convictions and a vision of where they want to take the country. Nigerians gave him the benefit of the doubt—that’s why they elected him.

Interviewer: But why does it look like Tinubu has chased out the Buhari boys and is bringing in the Lagos boys?

SD: Who are the Buhari boys?

Interviewer: The CPC bloc of the APC.

SD: Look, when a new government comes in, it is both constitutional and natural that the president forms his own cabinet. You cannot take that away. The first criterion for appointment is simple: that you are a Nigerian. It is not whether you are a Tinubu boy or a Buhari boy.

Interviewer: But the major pillars of the economy are being manned by so-called Lagos boys, Tinubu’s old allies.

SD: Let’s be fair—every leader surrounds himself with people he trusts. Think about it: when you ran a media house, a TV or radio station, years later, you’d remember the best cameraman you ever had, or the most reliable interviewer, and you’d bring them on board. It’s not about exclusion, it’s about trust and competence. Tinubu has people who worked with him, proved themselves, and stayed loyal over decades. Any leader would do the same.

So the classification of “Lagos boys” versus “Buhari boys” is, in my view, overstated. There’s been no deliberate attempt to exclude anyone.

Interviewer: But that seems to be breaking the ranks of the APC so far.

SD: Let’s take CPC as an example. Within CPC, you had northerners from the North Central and North East, you had Christians and Muslims, you had Igbos, Hausas, Yorubas. Diversity has always been there. And even within Tinubu’s government, you still see that same spread. What matters is capability and trust—not labels.

SD: Sometimes when you hear “CPC”, there’s a perception that it was a northern party. That’s not true. CPC was never a regional or ethnic party. That’s one.

Two, in this current government, for example, the SGF served Nigeria under President Buhari. And when you take an appointment, you take an oath—not to Buhari, not to Obasanjo, not to any individual president. The oath you take is to the Nigerian Constitution and the Nigerian people. That is the point.

Interviewer: But Mr. Dare, critics say that those of you managing the image of the president are quick to attack dissenting voices, that you can’t tolerate opposition. They also argue this government is just a continuation of what many consider the failure of the Buhari administration—that there’s been no break, just continuity.

SD: I disagree. If the Buhari administration had truly failed, we would not have a country standing today. We would not have had a successful transition, we would not have had elections.

Interviewer: So, the Buhari government did not fail?

SD: The Buhari government, like every government before it, came in, met challenges, and confronted them to the best of its ability. No government—whether Obasanjo’s, Yar’Adua’s, Jonathan’s, or Buhari’s—has ever solved all of Nigeria’s problems. They identified priorities, worked on them, and achieved results in some areas, even if not in every area. Governance is like that. Some problems take decades, not years, to resolve.

Interviewer: But critics insist Buhari left the economy in ruins.

SD: Seun, every incoming government has to reset priorities. No country progresses without loans. The real question is: what did you use the loans for? When a new government comes in, it has the right to continue, review, or discontinue policies. And Tinubu’s government has done just that. Each administration stands or falls on its own performance. But let us be clear—there is no magic wand anywhere in the world. No president comes in and solves every problem instantly.

Look at America: when Biden came in, he was hailed as the best thing after ice cream. Now Trump is back in the headlines, digging up the past. Biden did some good work, but even he could not solve all the challenges. That is the nature of governance everywhere.

Interviewer: Finally, let me put you on the spot. On a scale of one to ten—ten being the highest, zero the lowest—how would you rate the last two years you served under this administration?

SD: That’s a trick question.

Interviewer: I’m actually making it easy for you. Go ahead and score.

SD: Well, let me answer with my full chest, and from a vintage perspective. First, as a journalist of more than three decades, as an investigative journalist who has studied and interrogated Nigeria’s problems from an intellectual standpoint, I can say this: every administration faces hard economic choices.

For instance, I have studied how other countries handled fuel subsidy removal. In some of those countries, it took four years before the economy stabilized and the cost of living came down. The laws of economics do not change simply because it is Nigeria. Before us, five other countries removed subsidy—and the trajectory is always difficult at first. What matters is staying the course and making sure the sacrifices translate into long-term stability for the people.

SD: And when you study these cases, you’ll see it often took three to four years before countries were able to reduce the cost of living—through consistent effort in addressing challenges. My point is this: having also served in a previous government as a minister, and with what I’ve observed in just two years—the level of production, the bold ideas, the initiatives, even some of the early results—we must acknowledge the courage it takes.

It is only the person in the arena, facing the realities, who truly understands the weight of leadership. This president knows there is no more room for band-aid solutions; what Nigeria needs now is real surgery.

So, as we reach the halfway mark, I can comfortably give this administration a 6.5 out of 10, with the benefit of the doubt that the next two years will allow more of the impact and results we anticipate to fully manifest.

Interviewer: So you rate this government 6.5 over 10?

SD: Absolutely—in terms of performance.

Interviewer: Finally, do you want to be governor of a state?

SD: Another trick question, Seun. Right now, I am fully focused on the assignment I have been given. Why? Because the work of public communication—engaging the public, explaining government policies, ensuring the people understand what government is doing, while also providing feedback to leadership—is a critical assignment.

Interviewer: So your ambition for governorship is on hold?

SD: It is in abeyance, for now.

Interviewer: Meaning in 2027, you have no intention of contesting?

SD: No, I do not.

Interviewer: Who would you support?

SD: That depends on the primaries.

Interviewer: Adelabu has shown interest.

SD: Adelabu is only one of the aspirants. From what I know, there are more than 11 others also interested in the Oyo governorship, most of them from the APC. The process will play out—they will campaign, move around, and eventually, one candidate will secure the ticket. If Adelabu wins the APC ticket, of course I will support him.

Interviewer: Do you think Ibadan should produce the governor this time around?

SD: That’s a broad debate. Here’s what I’ll say: when one part of the state has produced governors for over 22 years, while other regions—equally politically strong, like Oke Ogun, Ogbomosho, perhaps even Ibarapa—have not, naturally there will be calls for rotation.

By 2027, that contest will surely emerge. Everyone will have a fair opportunity; Ibadan cannot be denied simply because they’ve held the office for long. But equally, Ogbomosho and Oke Ogun must organize themselves, mobilize, and demonstrate political strength in ideas and structure if they wish to dislodge the status quo.

Personally, I believe it is time for power to rotate. The governorship should move around.

Interviewer: Mr. Sunday Dare, thank you so much for your time today.

SD: Thank you, Seun Okinbaloye.

Interviewer: That's our conversation with Mr. Sunday Dare, spokesperson to President Bola Tinubu. Thank you so much everyone for watching the mic-on podcast today.